For Those Using Free Forms From The Internet

Be careful of what you get. I have said this before but not quite as well as Wiggin & Nourie, P.A. does with its Is LegalZoom Legal?

"I think that people generally have a tendency to underestimate the work that goes into the preparation of an estate plan, it requires a great deal more than simply printing off forms. LegalZoom and other such services reinforce the opinion that estate planning may easily be accomplished by generating simple forms, but if you are considering the use of such services, you should look closely at the service provider's disclaimer. You will likely see, as in the case of LegalZoom, that the service provider is not serving as your attorney, does not review the documents you prepare for legal sufficiency and does not guarantee that the documents are correct. Preparing estate planning documents without the benefit of a legal opinion may result in unintended consequences that may be costly to correct in the future. In my experience, the vast majority of clients engage in estate planning to gain a sense of reassurance that their family will be cared for after their death in the manner that the client thinks is most appropriate, to pay for documents to be prepared without receiving the benefit of legal advice may undermine the entire purpose of the planning in the first place."

While the topic of their post is estate planning, everything there applies to family law and every other area of the law.

Attorney Fees: Why Free is Not Always Free

Following up a bit on my post on consultation fees, I want to talk about free.  In the past year there has been made much of making money off of free.  Chris Anderson's book Free pushed this idea and made it sexy.  My understanding of the idea may be an oversimplification but is that this is a rehash of the idea of loss leaders. This blog represents - to me - what Mr. Anderson was talking about.

I also have another idea in my head that opposes Mr. Anderson's ideas.  That idea is there is no such thing as a free lunch.  The best, longest explanation I found years ago in Robert Heinlein's novel The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  Or this variation;  you get what you pay for.  For some clarity, you should also read Binary Law's Free - radical or not?.

Those of you seeking a free lunch (and who actually does not) need to consider just what you are getting for free.  Taking this blog as an example, you get free information but this is not all the knowledge that is in my head.  Those not seeking education will find this blog (and every other one) seriously lacking in content.

You consumers of legal services also need to know what you getting.  With family law cases, you are not getting only litigation but knowledge purchased with experience.  I had an experience last week that I want to discuss on its own but some points cna be made here.  At a minimum, litigation requires witness preparation, getting familar with the documents in the case, learning the facts and not just showing up at court.  Just showing up and not knowing the facts of the case brings to mind George Armstrong Custer and the Little Bighorn.

On the other hand, lawyers need to consider what we do in these days of the Internet. Law21.ca has a very good article, Free and the GP, discussing all these points but here are what I thought were the highlights:

Interesting as all this is, what does it have to do with the legal profession? Potentially, a great deal, as some legal bloggers have noted. Carolyn Elefant and Doug Cornelius both point to innovative new offerings from two well-known US law firms: Wilson Sonsini has set up an online term sheet generator, while Orrick has created a start-up forms library on its website. Both of these products (or are they services?) are entirely free, to anyone (client, non-client, other lawyer) who wants to use them. They’re also products from which these firms and others have traditionally made money. “But there’s a method to Orrick’s apparent madness,” Carolyn writes:
Orrick’s freebies help it capture a segment of the market which either couldn’t afford to hire Orrick or if they could, would not have been worth Orrick’s time. Consider the example of a small business — typically the type of client outside of biglaw’s demographic. The business might download and fill in Orrick’s incorporation form and then say to itself “I’ve already filled out the data. How much could it cost to pay an Orrick attorney to look this over?” Likewise, Orrick could charge far less to eyeball a completed form which it prepared itself than if the firm were to begin the incorporation from scratch (in which case, it would have to invite the client to the office, interview the client, gather the data and prepare the incorporation papers).

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Giving away something for free or ultra-cheap in hopes you’ll entice users to buy your other services is not a new phenomenon, even in law: smaller firms have been using items like wills as “loss leaders” for years. What’s significant here is what’s being given away.

Legal forms aren’t matchbooks or Bic pens — or at least, they didn’t use to be: they were once important elements of the lawyer’s inventory that required a lawyer’s skills. The fact that they’re now customizable and downloadable on the Net tells us that the skill to produce them is now available widely. That implies a lack of scarcity and a consequent inability to charge much of a price. Legal knowledge, as Doug points out, is already being given away free by law firms; now, it appears that legal processes like document creation are following suit.

Again, I do not do free consults.  What fees I do charge are directly related to what your case needs done.  I will be discussing those in the next few days.

Since I wrote the above, I ran across Law Firm Price Wars Break Out as Some Try ‘Loss Leader’ Bids for Work from the ABA Journal.  This is not good news really - at some point the lack of income will cut into services.

Need a Hearing Transcript from Marion County? Form for You.

The Marion County Paternity Court in Indianapolis has paper forms in its court office.  The public can get them if they walk into the court.  Why they are not posted to the City-County website is a question most non-lawyers would have but I suspect whoever is in charge at the Marion Circuit Court just never thought of it.

Which lead me to post the form needed to request a transcript here.

Want to Dismiss a Marion County Protective Order? Here is a Form

The Marion County Paternity Court in Indianapolis has paper forms in its court office.  The public can get them if they walk into the court.  Why they are not posted to the City-County website is a question most non-lawyers would have but I suspect whoever is in charge at the Marion Circuit Court just never thought of it.

Which lead me to post the form needed to dismiss a Marion County Protective Order here.

By the way, this form could be used elsewhere in Indiana.

Doing a Contempt Case in Marion County? Form for You.

The Marion County Paternity Court in Indianapolis has paper forms in its court office.  The public can get them if they walk into the court.  Why they are not posted to the City-County website is a question most non-lawyers would have but I suspect whoever is in charge at the Marion Circuit Court just never thought of it.

Which lead me to post the form needed to start a contempt case here.

By the way, this form could be used elsewhere in Indiana.

Changing How We Should Be Practicing Law

Do you think all a lawyer does is create a form to be a lawyer?  Then you need read to the end.

If you think all you need for your case (divorce, support, custody, visitation, grandparen't visitation) is a legal form to do what a lawyer does, then you definitely need read to the end.  It will probably save you a lot in attorney fees.

Getting the general public to understand what lawyers do, the value of legal services is a problem. Recently, I decided to make a stand on this issue and start unbundling my family law services.  I wrote about this here.  So far the response has been only one e-mail and a request for how much I would charge for reviewing documents.  I have had no response to my fee quote ($50.00).  I am left with the impression - perhaps unfounded and maybe well-founded - that the writer thinks that not worth the cost.  Which is too bad.  Within the minuscule amount of information she gave was contained a problem that will probably result in post-divorce litigation. 


When I returned to private practice back in 2003, I had ideas that document automation posed a great change in how we should practice law.  Writing this blog sharpened some of my thinking on the subject. by giving me a view of what the public thinks.

Lee Rosen of Divorce Discourse published Stop Selling Documents, Start Selling Advice, or Quit that comes close to crystalizing some of these points I have been thinking about:

We get calls from price shoppers sometimes. “How much is a separation agreement?” they ask. We explain that the agreement itself is a small part of the process. The larger issue, and the important part of our representation, is the advice we give about what the agreement should say along with managing the process and the negotiation.

We explain that they’ll divorce once. We, however, have been through thousands of divorces and we’ll help them avoid the mistakes we’ve seen others make.

“But what about the agreement? How much does it cost?”

Sometimes it’s exasperating.

But, realistically, some people want the document, not the advice.

I have the same type of telephone calls.  We call them tire-kickers.  Between the telephone calls and analyzing the Google searches that bring some to this blog, I have come to think that most of the public thinks all they need to do their case is a legal form.  I wrote a bit about this in Free forms, Thoughts for the Do-It-Yourself Crowd, and Unbundling My Services where I likened legal forms to bombs.




Law21.ca's The electric law firm reinforces these ideas on a more general way:

So how might a law firm give away products while selling services? Jeff Carr has observed that lawyer work falls into four categories: content, process, judgment and advocacy. The first two are well on their way to commoditization; the latter two remain the high-value and near-irreplaceable purview of lawyers. The day might soon arrive when firms publish and automate their legal knowledge, document assembly and document review process free of charge, over the internet, to anyone who wants them — but will charge a monthly retainer fee for the personal judgment, advice and representation that animates those documents and processes and provides real value. Wilson Sonsini’s term sheet generator is a step in this direction, but so are child support calculators and PCT calculators. The tangible product is the giveaway; the value, and the profit, are in the service.

Getting a legal form and knowing what to do with it are two different things.  What I and other lawyers provide is the knowledge.  Creating the document plays only a small part in providing legal services.  I cannot understate my agreement withMr. Rosen and Mr. Furlong on this point.

I offer this thought:  get the form online if you want, but get a lawyer to make sure you have not just screwed yourself. 

Somehow, the Bar needs to educate the public about the value of our services.  I know that presupposes that the general public has an interest in being educated as consumers of legal services. 

On the other hand, the Bar needs to rethink how what it does provide to the general public.  The current recession makes this a necessity for all of us.

The Madison County Financial Declaration Form

Since the Madison County Courts will not post this online, I thought I might just as well.  Just follow this link.

Remember if you have a divorce, child support, visitation/parenting time, or child custody case, this Declaration needs filed with the court.

Remember, if you want more information about retaining me for a case, please give me a call at 765-641-7906.

Free forms, Thoughts for the Do-It-Yourself Crowd, and Unbundling My Services

I got a heads up from bestcourtreportingdegree.com about its listing of form sites directories a few weeks back.  I know that some of you come to the site looking for free advice about your case or looking for forms and this might interest you. Before you go racing for the site, be sure to read the other article I include in this post.

50 Free Sources for Downloadable Legal Templates; Documents

The sites listed below are categorized by “various documents,” which covers personal and business legalities of all shapes, sizes and character. The business category offers sites that focus mainly on businesses, especially smaller businesses. The last category, “Specific Focus Sites,” offers links to sites that focus only on one specific issue, with free legal documents and templates that pertain to that issue.

All sites are listed alphabetically under each category to show readers we do not favor one legal template and document site over another.

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Specific Focus Sites

42. Divorce Forms: Click on your resident state link to obtain marriage settlement agreement kits with free divorce forms, fee waiver, checklist and guides.
43. Fathers Unite: Legal forms that any father may need in custody situations.
44. Free Divorce Forms: Click on your state on the Web site map to download divorce forms and documents and templates for issues about children, custody, child support, restraining orders, petitions and more for that state.
45. freenetlaw.com: Find a copyright notice, Web site disclaimer, privacy statement and cookies policy template for your Web site.
46. Legal Pleading Template: This site provides several legal pleading templates for appeals, for appellee to respond to appellant, for filing bankruptcy, divorce and civil lawsuits.

I do know the quality of these forms.  You may want to compare them with the forms I have posted to Scribed.com.

Am I right in thinking that people think all they have to do is fill in a form and they become instant lawyers? Houston Divorce & Family Law Attorney Blog's Do-it-yourself on-line Divorce Kits - Buyer Beware! shows the danger of this kind of thinking.

Just this morning in the 311th District Court of Harris County, I personally witnessed a pro se litigant present a final decree of divorce. The source of the litigant’s forms were RapidLaw, an internet site offering divorce, adoption, and bankruptcy services across the U.S.

The family law judges and court staff in Harris County bend over backwards to assist pro se litigants. However, they may not give legal advice to pro se parties. The forms were not prepared to properly dispense with the parties’ 401-K and retirement benefits. Apparently, the documents were insufficient enough to spur the judge urge the litigant to reconsider presentation of the decree as-is. The Judge asked the pro se party where she received the forms. Her response was Rapid Law. The Judge next asked the party if she paid for the forms, and she answered yes. Finally, the Judge directed the bailiff to photocopy the instructions from RapidLaw – presumably to present the information to the State Bar of Texas.

I have no way to know whether the pro se party: incorrectly filled out the forms, failed to follow instructions, or if the service offered by the provider was simply deficient. I do know the end result was not what the party intended, and she must now seek counsel to properly prepare the final decree to finalize her divorce.

I had a similar experience that I wrote about in Observations on Pro Se Cases, Part 2: You Got to Know The Territory.

Bear with me for a few more minutes.  Legal documents bear no relation to the kind of documents where you might fill out elsewhere - say like a credit application or a car title.

Think of legal documents as being more like bombs that you are throwing out into the wider world.  They have a purpose and a meaning in a broader context.  You need to know their purpose or they will blow up in your face.  The excerpt from Houston shows the blowing up in the face situation.

Lawyers know the context - that is the legal system.  They know the purpose of the legal system.  Whether doing without any advice from an attorney is really worth the cost, does depend on the facts of the case.  After all you can learn the context (I suggest my Indiana Family Law:  Where the Law Comes From - Parts 1, 2, and 3 for a start on what you need to know) and from there you can figure out what purpose each form has in your case.  But how long do you have to accomplish all this?

I go at this length to explain why I hesitate to recommend any form site - even the use of my own forms.  It is not even so much the question of how well the form is designed for Indiana, but a fear that they create a false sense of security in the user.  I can promise very few things in my business but I can promise this: the Texans from the Houston article will spend more on fixing their Decree than what they saved by using the online forms.

I should probably point out I am now offering unbundled services.  Unbundled means that instead of hiring a lawyer for all legal services, they are hired only for parts of a case.  While still not common in Indiana, the idea of unbundling services has been around for awhile.  My Why I am offering unbundled legal services gives the reasons for my offering this type of service and how I see it working for a client's benefit.  I have set out here the kind of services I see - at this point - as being best suited to unbundling. 

Discovery: Interrogatories

Interrogatories are written questions sent from one side of the case to the other. You can find a good general definition/article here.  Also, Indiana's Rule of Trial Procedure sets out the rule regarding Interrogatories in Interrogatories to Parties.

I wrote about discovery generally in Divorce, Between The Provisional Hearing and The Final Hearing: Discovery. 

For examples of what Interrogatories look like and what they might cover (but everything they might cover), I have posted at JD Supra the following forms:  Support Modification Interrogatories, Interrogatories Visitation, DIVORCE- INTERROGATORIES- NO kids,  divorce- Interrogatories- kids, and Custody INTERROGATORIES.

By the way, these forms were originally created in HotDocs and how the variables that need changed from case to case.

Indiana Discovery Forms

I have begun adding discovery forms to my JD Supra profile. You can access them here. I use these forms in HotDocs and they do show the variables that need to be changed from county-to-county and case-to-case.

As an aside to any lawyers reading this, I have never understood why Lexis has not incorporated HotDocs into its forms libraries. Bundling the software with a CD of forms seems to me to make both a lot more valuable.

Indiana Forms on JD Supra

I have begun uploading my family law forms onto the JD Supra site. These are the same forms I use in HotDocs. You can go here to see them.